The great ethanol debate......

[gruss]

So after much heartache, and searching for suitable fuels to run in the sporty engine that do "not" contain ethanol, i have ended my search.

It would seem that thanks to our beloved President obuma, and a few other Presidents before him, we now have ethanol mandated in over 25 states, and by November of this year, the remaining states will be required to switch over to a 10% ethanol blend fuel supply.

The only exception to this will be the oil burning big trucks etc. Realizing this conversion is inevitable, i've been forced to search out non-typical fuel supplies, and have found a few high octane racing fuels, but nothing that will be a direct replacement for pump gas. (as most racing fuels contain ethanol anyway, at twice the price)

This raises many interesting questions regarding fuel system, and engine damage potential. Based on the current reports, most engines will do fine running the ethanol laced juice, while a few reports are beginning to surface again regarding total engine failure that may or may not be related to the use of ethanol...

My overall assessment of the fuel strategy is this:

(1) We have been forced to purchase alcohol laced fuels.(again)

(2) Ethanol is an alcohol ( used to make booze, and any other use of this stuff should be considered alcohol abuse ) (sorry Jack)

(3) The use of these fuels has the potential to melt your carb from the inside out. ( certainly causing an increase in fuel related problems )(I wonder why my fuel line feels like bubble gum)

(4) Alternate fuel supplies are incredibly scarce. (they dont exist)

(5) I hope we all enjoy water in our fuel supplies.( ethanol is hygroscopic, and rapidly absorbs water )(also reducing gasoline storage times by 1/2)

(6) The gubment denies that these modified fuels are damaging.(shocking)

Sounds about right to me. Just another gubment mandate to take from us, rather than give....

I'm going to the gas station, and filling up with good old fashioned booze, so i hope the little sporty engine is up to the task, as i really have no other choice, that is, unless i start to walk everywhere i go, and that would lead to an even larger consumption of ethanol, in the form of Jack Daniels, or some other suitable form of ethanol...

Drink up ! maybe we can cause an ethanol shortage, and get our gasoline supplies back to where they should be........

Please use this thread for your gasoline related rants. I know the stories will begin to surface shortly......g

[tibadoe]

Been forced to use ethanol gas for a few years now in my hometown. So far no problems in our car, truck or bike yet. Not bad since the car and truck both have almost 100,000 miles. As for the bike I been running ethanol in the tank ever since I purchased it last summer. I have it tuned for the ethanol when I did the Stage I. I also add fuel treatment each month in the bike and each oil change in the vehicles. Don't know if it is actually helping but if makes me feel better. Just my 2 cents worth.

[vlade]

It's crap and you'll never get the mileage you get out of straight fuel. But these fuggars really want everybody to walk cause we fat. Or buy a DWEEB GM electrix car to puuter to work cause thats all you really need to do. Work to pay taxes. Goin cross country like to HERDstock? You dont need to waste the gas, stay home vacation there, find a local park and jack yurself off for week.

[Osco]

A professional driver's Input : Tested and checked carefully, 10% Ethanol = about 10% less fuel mileage,,Yep this is odd,,should be about 5% less at most,,Its 10% less
Carb's will suffer to some extent,,EFI can handle it fine,,
I fuel my truck (4cyl Toyota) every work day,,I burn about 12 to 25 gallons a day,,no prob's at all. It's designed for E 85
I'm a weekend rider so the bike get's one to two tanks and Sits during the work week.. No probs so far. I use a half dose of a Marine fuel stabilizer now and then.
Don't know if thats helping prevent future probs.
My Yard equipment,,different story,,my Mower a snapper with a 11.5 hp briggs seems fine. NOT so with my 2 cycle engine's
My weed whacker/edger, Its killing it, the blower wich Is newer is getting harder to tune.
The few professional yard men I know say ethanol Is shortening 2 cycle engine life by about half
A freind who is a cert toyota mechanic of 15 years Has a Liter bike,, and a cruiser, He says BOTH lost about 20% fuel mileage

[Dan]

WOW there is so much I wanna post about this but it gets way to complicated. There are 2 sides to bio fuels and neither side agrees, for ever 1 document that says one thing there is an equal document thats says another.

[vlade]

WOW there is so much I wanna post about this but it gets way to complicated. There are 2 sides to bio fuels and neither side agrees, for ever 1 document that says one thing there is an equal document thats says another.

Take a shot Dan, Thats what forums is about least till you get on the LIB progreesive ones ,,had the oportunity to run both and Eth Sucks + you'll never be able to make enough to fuel the country at the present use anyway.

[Dave63]

My overall assessment of the fuel strategy is this:

(1) We have been forced to purchase alcohol laced fuels.(again)

(2) Ethanol is an alcohol ( used to make booze, and any other use of this stuff should be considered alcohol abuse ) (sorry Jack)

(3) The use of these fuels has the potential to melt your carb from the inside out. ( certainly causing an increase in fuel related problems )(I wonder why my fuel line feels like bubble gum)

(4) Alternate fuel supplies are incredibly scarce. (they dont exist)

(5) I hope we all enjoy water in our fuel supplies.( ethanol is hygroscopic, and rapidly absorbs water )(also reducing gasoline storage times by 1/2)

(6) The gubment denies that these modified fuels are damaging.(shocking)

Sounds about right to me. Just another gubment mandate to take from us, rather than give....

I'm going to the gas station, and filling up with good old fashioned booze, so i hope the little sporty engine is up to the task, as i really have no other choice, that is, unless i start to walk everywhere i go, and that would lead to an even larger consumption of ethanol, in the form of Jack Daniels, or some other suitable form of ethanol...

Drink up ! maybe we can cause an ethanol shortage, and get our gasoline supplies back to where they should be........

Please use this thread for your gasoline related rants. I know the stories will begin to surface shortly......g

1.) Not true. Not all fuels have Ethanol. Some have MMT (methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) MMT is a gasoline octane enhancer, allowed in U.S. gasoline at a level equivalent to 1/32 grams per gallon manganese (gpg Mn).

2.) Yep. Now not only do you pump gas, but you pump Ethyl.

3.) Nope. Since the mid-90's, natural rubber has been taken out of the equasion with the use of other rubber compounds, that are ethanol resistent. However, steel gas tanks are not resistent, and stainless is generally used, but at least your carb (EFI PARTS) are safe.

4.) My theory on this is, there's too many people in Politics that have made money in OIL, so why would they make laws to stray away from it......? Just sayin.

5.) Not only is it hygroscopic, but in that absorption, the Ph levels rise, becoming corrosive and deteriorating anything that's steel or softer.

6.) Agreed.

7.) Sorry..... you never wrote a #7.

[vlade]

1.) Not true. Not all fuels have Ethanol. Some have MMT (methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) MMT is a gasoline octane enhancer, allowed in U.S. gasoline at a level equivalent to 1/32 grams per gallon manganese (gpg Mn).

2.) Yep. Now not only do you pump gas, but you pump Ethyl.

3.) Nope. Since the mid-90's, natural rubber has been taken out of the equasion with the use of other rubber compounds, that are ethanol resistent. However, steel gas tanks are not resistent, and stainless is generally used, but at least your carb (EFI PARTS) are safe.

4.) My theory on this is, there's too many people in Politics that have made money in OIL, so why would they make laws to stray away from it......? Just sayin.
5.) Not only is it hygroscopic, but in that absorption, the Ph levels rise, becoming corrosive and deteriorating anything that's steel or softer.

6.) Agreed.

7.) Sorry..... you never wrote a #7.

And they could jus as easy make money in alchohol if there was any money to be made. Dont think oil has some magic politician control button or wand.

[Dave63]

And they could jus as easy make money in alchohol if there was any money to be made. Dont think oil has some magic politician control button or wand.

Me niether, but they're (Government/Politicians) not going to make laws that will have a nagative affect against friends and business partners that have and do, donate countless dollars to elections and campaigns.

You'll not make 1/10th the money for Ethanol, made from corn, that will equal the cost, demand and sales of Oil.

If it weren't for the inaction of Policians, Oil production and it's sales would have been added to the list controlled by the Federal Utilities Commision. Had it not been for the money that's connected with oil, that was able to lobby their way out of it, as it would have capped prices that they could charge, and limit the money that they would have made. Just like the Government did to PPL, when a 15 year price cap was placed on them, to prevent overcharging.

I agree, Vlade....there's no magic wand. It's dirty, political backdoor business that you and I pay for, while Oil Tycoons roll in cash.

[B-Man]

Living in an ethanol producing state, I am able to purchase Regular unleaded without ethanol and it's priced about 3-5 cents more than E-10. I do burn E-10 in my vehicles but I don't in the HD! I buy the 87 octane and have an octane booster from HD that works great! I try and buy premium but it's not always available!! With regards to ethanol, I have never understood that it takes more 'energy' to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon of ethanol will produce! Every Bushel of corn taken to the plant to produce ethanol is subsidized by the tax-payer here in Nebraska! When corn reached over $4/bushel most of the ethanol plants shut down or slowed due to the high cost! Right now, there are a number of ethanol plants up here that were being built and construction has jus stopped and they're jus sitting there! Ethanol is another guv'ment program that is subsidized by the taxpayer but the guv'ment is collecting "fuel tax" on every gallon produced! Can you say "let's screw Joe Citizen"!!!! Jus my .02

[gruss]

1.) Not true. Not all fuels have Ethanol. Some have MMT (methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) MMT is a gasoline octane enhancer, allowed in U.S. gasoline at a level equivalent to 1/32 grams per gallon manganese (gpg Mn).

2.) Yep. Now not only do you pump gas, but you pump Ethyl.

3.) Nope. Since the mid-90's, natural rubber has been taken out of the equasion with the use of other rubber compounds, that are ethanol resistent. However, steel gas tanks are not resistent, and stainless is generally used, but at least your carb (EFI PARTS) are safe.

4.) My theory on this is, there's too many people in Politics that have made money in OIL, so why would they make laws to stray away from it......? Just sayin.

5.) Not only is it hygroscopic, but in that absorption, the Ph levels rise, becoming corrosive and deteriorating anything that's steel or softer.

6.) Agreed.

7.) Sorry..... you never wrote a #7.

As far as the Utah fuels of days gone by, the main "oxygenating" component has been MTBE...
methyl tertiary butyl ether....
a nasty little additive that caused more nightmares than could ever be imagined. It was melting fuel pumps, and scouring the fuel systems so clean that injectors would seize.
Up to 15 percent concentrations were used, and ethanol was added in a 10% concentration as well......I dont have to tell you how 25% garbage fuel ran in my vehicles...
It required a filter change every 3-5000 miles.....( fuel tank was being stripped clean )

We dropped that grade of fuel a couple of years ago, but now its back, minus the MTBE....I'm still scared of the ethanol, but i do enjoy drinking it from time to time...

Thank you for the correction on the rubber stuff....I hope we dont have issues.......

And i've made up my mind, its alcohol abuse......g

[Dan]

Ok here are some things I know about ethanol from delivering the stuff, working for an oil company, and reading trade mags:

Ethanol will suspend water in a storage tank. This makes it harder to determine if a tank is contaminated with water and how much water is actually in a tank.
Ethanol is added to gasoline at the time it is picked up at a terminal as opposed to it being pre mixed and stored.
Gasahol that is stored must be aggitated once every 24 hours to keep it from separating. This can be done by adding new inventory or with devices put in the tanks. Separation usually takes 3 months to complete.
Ethanol was sold to the public as a cleaner burning fuel, which is true except after finding out that fuel milage is reduced that selling point was abandoned. Now its been sold to the public as a renewable resourse.
As ethanol demand gets higher we need more farmland to grow the corn which means cutting down more trees that remove carbon from the air which will create more pollution in the end than it prevents. This aslo leads to more fertilizers and pesticides being used, which from the runoff pollutes rivers and streams.
Brian is correct it takes about 50% more power to produce 1 gallon of ethanol than the power 1 gallon of ethanol will provide.
Ethanol causes premature fatigue of metal causing spider fractures in metals, this is one of 2 reasons its not run through the pipelines. The second reason is it must be run through a dedicated pipeline to prevent contamination of the ethanol with other products.
The U.S. by itself can only produce 10% of the ethanol needed to supply the U.S. The rainforests are being cut down at an alarming rate to create farms to grow the materials for bio fuels.
Ethanol was also sold to the public as a cheaper fuel. Actually it is more expensive to produce ethanol over gasoline but currently its being subsidized by the gov. at the last known figure of $1.00 per gallon (might have changed)
The average decrease in MPG is 3-15% using E-10 (10% ethanol) and upwards of 50% using E-85 (85% ethanol)
If you live in an area that has ethanol and are buying straight gas to use in your vehicles you may want to look at the sticker on the pump of the straight gasoline because I am pretty sure it says for off road use only! The fines for using it on road can be quite high if caught.

By 2011 all deisel fuel is supposed to contain no less than 2% bio fuel which has the same effect of ethanol as far as lost fuel milage although slightly lower it will drive transportation costs up. Currently deisel fuel can contain 15 PPM (Parts Per Million) of sulfer, and new regulations are supposed to reduce that to 5 PPM which means that the lubricity of deisel fuel will be reduced even lower and the more sulfer you remove the less power that is created when it burns

Take this information with a grain of salt, it is not the end all be all of the information out there. Do your own reseach if you have further need to know more.

[B-Man]

Great info Dan!!

[gruss]

Fine post Dan, I appreciate all of the great info here on ethanol, and its pro's/con's.
It appears that the stuff carries more con's....HHhhmmm

sounds like it should be left to the brewers, and not the refiners....IMHO

[vlade]

Honestly I think we would have better luck pumpin sewage and shit back in the ground and letting it perk for so many eons till its crude. Than fugin around with the ECO wacko and Farm Lobby ideas like Ethanol.